Should dynamis have job/quality requirements?

[goldnboy]

I have quite abit more to add to this thread... But for now i wanted to address this part.

Feb 1, 2013 12:31:35 GMT -6 Ikonic said:

I know there's quite a few people who are tired of DD not all being equal or even close. I'm one of them. It sucks when I do 25% of the dmg out of 6-8 DD yet get the same cut as someone who only does 3% of the dmg. I know not all DD jobs are equal, but if we at least made more of an effort the range of percents would be less.

As for the starting on time that is a big issue and my apathy for the game has made it much worse. This is why starting Sunday I'm hoping to make start times a lot more static and plan to make entrance about 5-10 minutes after jobs are called.

Exactly Not all DD are equal, And luckily as of late ive been able to use the DD job ive spent 200+ mil on. And have done quite well.... But no matter what SAM will never compete with MNKs especially in a short fight as ADL especially when we have to hold off WS ( THE BIGGEST part of SAM's DMG output)

I have mnk leveled. And highly geared. Just not the Weapon. But still i bet put in the "DD party" i can compete right along side any DD.

And to point out... a mistake on Katas and Kiriyaks part before Maz or ik chimes in on this... 2nd DD party does get embrava, does get songs(as of late) but thats it.. no phalanx no firestorm, no Perfect defense. AND Barely any healing of any kind... so if NOT all the time most the time they fall to numerous AOE shit ADL does.


I know we have good amount of popsets atm.... With watching 2 different LS's straight take down ADL before letting it split.... And with in flux of DD jobs (albeit some not as strong as others) Would like to see if we can do what they do and Merc it down before it has a chance to split.

Worst case.. it doesnt work and we lose a pop that we probably at some point would have lost anyway...

Never know we might find a way to make this alot easier. Eventually we are going to need to find a new avenue after they finally nerf PD and embrava.

[cowardlybabooon]

I'm with GB on the super smash strategy. Also agree on the second DD party dying all the time. I am regularly the healer in that party and it is nearly impossible to get more than one heal off without dying myself or getting cut off by silence or paralyze combined with sleep and gravity etc (yes, echo drops but people die while using them). Before someone says to run in and heal, realize his AoE is gigantic and extremely often during the 30 seconds we're fighting him. I'm not sure what the other LSs do regarding a second DD party if they do use PD on it though. I will say that I have been able to do 3kish nukes with SCH on ADL though, so we could maybe have some in the 2nd and 3rd party helping out with nukes during shock squalls and such if we were trying to kill before split. BLMs would be even better with elemental celerity and even Meteor as it gets cheaper.

Also, regarding Ik's comment, I do think that attendance may get a bit more consistent when people feel like they have a role in the "winning team." However, it is very important that the requirements are done carefully so that we don't piss off people who will be well geared soon. For example, I can vouch that Katas was HQ and totally a major player 2 years ago, but the argument that he needs to step back until his jobs are geared is also valid.

[Mazura]

One thing is, everyone gets embrava and most of the time if we have a substantial amount of DDs in second party, they get bard buffs too. They should also be getting scholar buffs, so in most situations, the parties are equal for buffs. The only difference is, second party does not get PD, which can screw up the parse if people die early, get paralyzed, or inflicted with numerous other debuffs. However, that doesn't always happen, there are situations when the second party isn't inflicted with debuffs and has equal footing when it comes to the parse.

This would all be taken into account if we use parse to gauge DDs. It's pretty simple to say that you had multiple debuffs on or didn't get proper buffs before the fight, so parse is inaccurate.

[Zarris]

I don't have it much in me anymore to argue over events, so whatever you all decide is fine with me.

That said, my only job that would be considered 'useful' here is Thf. Timewise I don't have much to try and get a second useful job up there, at lease not within a highly reasonable timeframe. This of course isn't the matter of getting a job to 99, that is fairly easy. The real issue is I am left with a lack of decent gear. Most of what i can do lately is solo, that leaves an empy or any equivalent just about out of the question.

So I am fairly sure I don't meet said requirements. So while I would like to continue, just let me know if that is the case and I will bow out.

[Mazura]

Just to make you aware, Zarris... Summoner is pretty useful (at least until they change PD) and all you need to have is Alexander to get some use out of it. Could be completely naked with Alexander and at least give us an additional PD which means one more ADL taken out per run. After the update, it's going to require some gear since SMN magic skill will determine duration. 30 seconds base duration + up to 30 seconds extended duration based upon SMN magic skill.

[sashimisan]

As "one of the new guys" I may go a slightly different route with my opinions. In any MMO I've played different jobs outsine others in givin situation, this is even more so the case in FFXI. FFXI is also designed so that you can play multiple jobs on the same character. Someone who enjoys mage classes for example would not find a spot in NNI as say, BLM, WHM, BLU, SMN, and would have to do a fair bit of haggling to get a RDM or BRD in there. But there's nothing stoping them from taking the ~2-5 days to get SCH to 99 and another week or two to gear them out. Since ADL farm does fall into the high investment = high reward category it only makes sence to take the right jobs with the rights gear, by defining those requirements, players can take a few weeks to meet those requirements and we can have success in there. I love playing samurai, but i'd never take it into abby because it just doesn't do what i need it to do in there. on ther other hand samurai is great in NNI. So I'm all for making requirements so we can be successful in there. However that all starts with good leadership. Ikonic i understand that your focus may not be on the game right now, but plese find someone to fill your shoes for these events beforehand so they can still start on time.

PS: I appreciate that this LS is able to take an objective look at this problem and not turn this into an elitists vs casual players rant, not many groups can do that.

[cowardlybabooon]

The results are in! Now what?

I will say that anyone who was at Dynamis this last Sunday is likely to have changed their vote in favor of having requirements. This thread had everyone on their toes enough to ask exactly which job they should bring and we had great attendance as well as timely entry. The result was 8 Umbral Marrows and I think only one loss? This could end up putting us in the highly desirable situation of not having enough pops, possibly even allowing people to earn points by putting together low man groups during the week to farm pop sets (assuming the math works out where gil from points is greater than gil from farming your own dynamis currency for 2 hours).

Either way, regarding requirements. How are we going to go about this now? A straight parse percentage is kinda funky considering all of the reasons one could have for not doing as well (such as stun/knockback, lack of buffs, no healer, controller locked up), but I think something like relic, mythic, empy weapon with exceptions of newly added rare/respected weapons would be a starting point. Specifically, I mean you shouldn't even be given a chance if you are bringing a Widowmaker or something, but obviously there are some VW Great Swords and things that can perform very highly. I've been trying to brainstorm how we could somehow have agreement that a certain person needs to level another job (like SMN) without blatantly embarrassing the person by putting it to a vote in front of them.

Something like assigned roles with a main job and alternate job is a possibility. For example, I would be primarily SCH while Embrava exists, but in the unlikely event that we have enough SCHs or the nerf makes it insignificant and replaceable by a WHM or RDM (yes I said RDM), MNK would currently be my backup job if it is deemed strong enough. We could even get as formal as applying to add an alternate job to your repertoire of useful jobs, for example like when I finish my Apoc and finally get DRK fully geared.

But it's important to note that the event is not about having fun at the expense of losing, so just because I make a DRK that can outdamage another person who is typically a DD, it doesn't mean I get to stop being SCH if we need a SCH. I think this can be handled without a "No Bitching" policy, but I very well may be wrong about that. It may however be okay to tell someone who typically comes WHM that they need to level SCH within the next month because it's best for the team.

Hopefully, it all makes sense what I'm getting at. Ultimately, I think the idea of requirements works best if everyone is very clear on what their role is, and why it is that way. It will eliminate a lot of the noise around "wanting" to come another job.

[Mazura]

At the moment, several of the newer people to the linkshell are actively working on jobs that would benefit the ADL event. There may not even be a need to enforce the requirements if people continue to work towards being able to contribute effectively. I like some of the ideas you threw out CB and would like to hear from some other people as to what they think we should do if we do actually need to enforce the requirements and what those requirements should be.

Using a straight parse to judge DD effectiveness isn't going to work so well on ADL, due to holding TP and having to engage a second time after it splits, however it will give us a basic idea who the people doing the majority of the damage are. As of right now, I don't think it should be any strict percentage or anything, but maybe if someone consistently comes in at less than half of the average DD they probably shouldn't be DD.

Now that the vote is in, I really would like to hear from everyone else on what they think would be a good way to handle these requirements.

[Ikonic]

In general I judge a decent/good DD based on gear and if they can do within 10% of my DMG. We can use parses to figure quality of a DD based on melee DMG, # of WS, and total DMG. If a DD does most of their DMG through WS (like SAM), then it's easy to tell if they are doing well based on the WS DMG of the parse.

As for requirements it would probably be something like this (gear-wise):
SMN - as close to 500 skill as possible (after update), at least 1200+ MP, Garuda, Alexander, Ramuh
SCH - AF3+2 hands, as close to 500 skill as possible, cure set
heavy DD (MNK, WAR, SAM, DRK, DRG) - empy/relic/mythic weapon or equivalent high-dmg weapon, better than average to stellar TP and WS gear
THF - full TH gear, better than average DD gear
COR - enhancing 2hr gear, appropriate rolls, ...
BRD - empy for 3 or 4 songs, +3 instruments, 80% fast cast, relic enhancing gear (currently filled, 'tho 2 might be an option at some point)

Skill would be another matter and subject to parse, gear check, and overall effectiveness of the player.

[myryllion]

With the possibility of under 45 second kills, I think ideally we should try and move to 2x whm 2xbrd 2x sch 1~2x cor as support. Some of the dd jobs that have done badly in the parses will prob show up a bit stronger when not having to hold tp. Not only should adls go smoother but having the party buffed during farming should speed things up a lot. Regen5 and marches would make a pretty big difference.

With under 60s PD coming up especially i think working on smn seems a bit counterproductive since with only 1 dd party even 90s can wear trying to kill after split. This would also mean we don't depend on using 2hrs so could kill as many as we have pops for.~

[Ikonic]

I like the idea of zerging w/o PD, but currently I just don't think we have the setup. I'd really want real solid DD all around to do that since if it splits there's a lot more chance of fail. 2 BRDs would help since we could then have 6 songs; that plus embrava would make a big difference. Maybe if we have enough next farming run we can try and see how it goes.

[creaper]

Not much cor really needs to be helpful aside from having buffs and being leveled fully. There would be a penalty if there is a level difference. There are certain things you potential cor mules could do that would make you more effective.
Get your navarch gloves and merit winning streak. Each merit gives you 20 seconds more duration on your buff. The gloves are reported to give 5% more duration meaning you could add more than two additional minutes to everyone's buffs. I only have 3 merits in WS because I'm not built for ADL only.
Augment your +2 relic boots. It will reroll your wild cards first attempt if you roll a 1 or a 2. Great for those with shitty luck or those looking to tip the scales even more in their favor.
Snake eye is also useful. Fully merited it gives you a 50% chance of an automatic 11 when used on a value of a 6 or more. Great for getting off unlucky numbers or just trying to get a lucky on the main DD party.
All of the above is what comes to mind so far for an ADL only cor. Maybe even phantom roll recast merits useful so ik doesn't have to wait 10 extra seconds for buffs.

Only other thing a cor should need is knowledge of their buffs lucky and unlucky number values along with a gun, ammo, good agl or macc, and elemental cards so you can sleep adds or avatars when farming. That's all I can think of so far.