Yummy, a PLD!

[Slayerz]

hah, kinda dumb polls, but there are no pld posts, so y not?

[Striveldt]

all depends on the situation, but this past weekend, i had the best tank i've ever had, he was a War/Nin using utsusemi:itchi and dual weilding military picks. nice damage, great hate holding (with a SATA landed on him at the begining, hate never left) and because he didn't have to rest for MP we killed faster. I've also had great pld tanks (and some not so good nin tanks)

[Stargasior]

I voted for....believe it or not NIN. From my point of view NIN is what I want more then a PLD. I don't need to refresh them and when their form of Blink is up the WHM does not need to heal so having refresh on the WHM isn't as much of a necessity(sp). Though if no one else has provoke to get hate so the NIN can cast on themselves it does make it difficult. I have taken the hate so the NIN could cast on themselves a few times lol. For the party as a whole PLD is better but for this one selfish instant I'll say NIN.

[Ikonic]

i completely understand and agree with your viewpoint star. as a blm I want a pld, nin loses hate too easily. as a whm i'll take a nin, less dmg to nin and less healing that i have to do, therefor resulting in less resting time. as a mnk, thf, or war i'd rather have a pld as a tank since, once again, nin can have hate taken from them so easily. for me to take hate from a nin as a mnk all i have to do is hit the mob... yes, i'm that good... heh... actually it's true.. with my gear i'm able to do enough dmg to gain hate from that alone. if i ws or voke it's even worse.. and if i want to i can keep the hate for a good while, if not the rest of the fight.

[Valhallodin]

Well, as you all know, I have a tendency to get long-winded, and this is going to be no different, so buckle up.

I personally feel that NIN tanks are extremely overrated. A NIN tank is often something people will use as a selling point for their party, and in some cases, I would much rather have another tank. From my experience, the style of tank that you want will be very dependent on your current level.

Level 12-23: NIN. I want a NIN tank during these levels because they have access to Utsusemi and it is not as difficult to effectively blink tank at this level.

Level 24-36: WAR/NIN. At this level, a WAR with a NIN sub will be able to blink tank, and I believe a WAR will have better hate holding ability than most NIN, and will also not be hit as hard once their shadows are gone.

Level 37-40ish: NIN. NIN will have access to both Utsusemi: Ichi and Utsusemi: Ni. With this combo, they can blink tank like whoa.

Level 40ish-48: PLD. At this level, almost all parties will have a RDM. A good RDM will be able to keep everyone, including the PLD, refreshed. Curing, as we all know, draws immense hate. This means that curing becomes a very powerful hate holding tool for a PLD to use.

That being said, I think all jobs can competently tank at any level if they know what they are doing. I have not played NIN or PLD to a very high level, so I can only speak from what I have observed from others in a party setting rather than my own personal experience.

The pros of NIN are obvious. Utsusemi is a very powerful tanking tool. However, I feel that to be a truly effective tank, a NIN must use their other ninjitsu abilities as well. This not only holds the hate on them better, it can also impose weaknesses on the mob that can then be exploited through nuking or skillchain selection. This can make the mobs go down much more quickly, and in turn make experience much more easy.

There are also some cons to a NIN tank. The first of which is that they take a beating once their utsusemi is gone. This can become very problematic if their casting is continually interrupted. Another con is that some NIN feel Utsusemi and Provoke is all they need to keep hate, and this is not at all the case. Without use of their other ninjitsu tools, a NIN will have serious issue keeping hate in a party that is even mildly effective at dealing damage. Finally, many NIN tanks are lazy in their subjob leveling. I have seen more than one 44NIN/5WAR. Simply because you have Utsusemi does not mean you are excused from leveling your sub.

A PLD also has pros and cons. On the positive side, they have high def, high vitality, and the ability to heal themselves in order to hold hate. If the RDM is willing to keep the PLD refreshed, then their ability to hold hate increases dramatically. The downside to this is that if Refresh is not an option, the PLD requires time to rest to regain MP, and as we all know, downtime is the enemy. Another con to PLD tanks is that they do very little damage, which means they are very dependent on other methods to hold hate. This problem can be overcome w/ Refresh, but without it, a PLD will either need downtime, or not be a good hate-holder. Also, for some reason, some PLDs seem to forget they have Provoke after the initial voke of the fight.

WARs I feel are very overlooked as tanks. While they do not always have the ability to blink tank like a NIN, or the ability to heal themselves like a PLD, I think they can still be very effective, for several reasons. WAR do have very good defense. They also have higher damage output than NIN or PLD, making them less dependent on other methods to hold hate. There are other things WAR can do to become even more effective tanks, such as subbing NIN with Utsusemi. This will give a WAR access to pretty much everything the NIN has (until 37 when the NIN gets Ni, etc.), only with better defense and better damage output.

Another important factor to consider when picking a tank is the set up of the party itself. For example, a good THF can make any PLD much more effective at their job. Landing a SATA onto the tank, followed by a Provoke from the tank is a very quick and effective way to lock a lot of hate onto the tank. This initial pool of hate built up will help make up for the fact that the PLD does not have a very high damage output. Couple this with Refresh and competence, and you have a hate holding machine.

Maybe I am partial to PLD currently b/c over the weekend I had the privilege to join a very good japanese party, which went through 3 PLDs (they kept having to leave for one reason or another, not because the party was bad), who were all exceptionally good at their job. We also went through 2 RDMs, both of whom were very good (the 2nd being the best I have ever partied with, though I am sure not as good as Star, Sal, Timm, or any of the rest of the PiF RDMs, I just haven't had the pleasure yet) and kept the PLD refreshed.

The only good NIN tanks I have ever partied with have all used their ninjitsu abilities to help in holding hate. It should also be noted that SATA is a great way to stack hate onto a NIN tank, or WAR tank for that matter as well. I just prefer a PLD tank, mainly because I have had the best experiences with them, and SATA is especially helpful to them.

Sorry if this seemed to get ramblish at the end. Hopefully you can all decipher what I mean. That's my 200 gil. (not 2 gil, I talked way too much for only 2 gil)

[Ikonic]

Ok, I just felt that after reading Val's post I'd give a little more detail of my experiences and opinions like he has.

lvl 12-23: best tank for this lvl? one that can hold hate. for my experiences (mind you i've been through this stage with 7 different jobs) war/mnk and mnk/war have been the best at holding hate here. however when i lvl'd thf i was the tank from 14-19 even 'tho we had a rank 10 nin in the pt. at these low lvls anything with a /war and good gear can hold hate, it just takes some skill in knowing how to keep it.

lvl 24-36: at this stage it gets much more difficult for a war to hold hate. so far my war is only lvl 26 and i'm finding it somewhat difficult to hold hate. the main reason: my gear isn't the best (still using some beetle) and having a good rng, blm, or drk can make it difficult to keep the hate. a pld would do much better here and possibly a nin. I know when i was in crawler's nest (both times) the only tank that could hold hate was a pld. nin failed in comparrison to the dmg that blm and mnk could do. given the massive dmg of the rest of the pt members a nin had no chance of holding hate whereas a pld was able to with moderate ease.

lvl 37-40: when i went through as mnk i had the fortune to pt with some very good pld tanks. they were able to keep the hate almost the entire time. when i pt'd with nin the only way they had a chance was if sata'd onto. at this lvl it was very easy for my mnk to take the hate.

lvl 40-48: well, so far i've only one job hit 45 and other 42 so i'm a little unknown to this area. being a whm i'd prefer a nin for the lack of healing i'd have to do, but with brd or rdm (or both) in a pt a pld outshines the nin in hate holding ability. since mp isn't much of an issue with proper support jobs downtime isn't either.

all in all i'd like to say this. i probably have a bias against nin. i don't know where exactly it started from and everything i say may not be entirely true (unknown repressed facts), but i'll go pld tank any day. i've had good fortune with well-equiped pld tanks and also bad fortune. it all depends on the person. a badly equiped pld can hold hate extremely well if the person knows how to play it. on the same hand a extremely well-equiped pld can lose hate like nothing if the person doesn't know what he/she is doing.

since i've played neither pld or nin i don't have first-hand experience in the matter. thus far the only tanking i've done has been with mnk/war, thf/war, and war/mnk.

one thing to note when lvl'ing a job that can be either tank or melee is to carry 2 types of gear and food. i have been carrying offensive and defensive gear and food for my war since often times i end up pt'ing with a pld and everyone thinks that pld's must tank (truth be told, they don't have any real jobs besides that). however, i've also had to tank when the pld isn't very good (as war or as thf) and so I'll switch over to my defensive gear at that time to decrease my dmg taken. currently for my thf i have 3 macros that do nothing but switch my gear. i use the defensive gear when pulling or when tanking and then switch to offensive once the tank gets the hate.

many people don't understand how gear can make a very big impact on the ability of one to do his/her job well. i'm running into a point where lvl'ing my subjobs requires better gear than i can afford. i'm at the point where i need to farm for both my main jobs (mnk and whm) as welll as my sub jobs (war, thf, blm). it used to be where if i had 40k i could deck out my job for 10 lvls. now it's taking 300k for one item. my advice on this. farm or find a way to make the gil before advancing the job. don't be like everyone else with sub-par gear. having the best gear (within reason) and playing your job well will get you invites in the future. I've had people i've pt'd with say they would leave any pt they're in because of how well my pt's run. it all deals with how well you can perform your job and communication.

ok.. that's all for my speel. damn. i get winded too, i guess. sorry, and good luck.

[Valhallodin]

Ik brought up a good point about gear. While I definitely come from the 'clothes do not make the man' school of thought, where the BEST gear isn't needed, I will say that sometimes gear is a good indication of a player's skill. This is obviously not always the case, and I put myself out there as an example. I will not say I am the best SAM in the world, but I will say I consider myself much better than average. I would also say I am better than every single SAM I have ever partied with that had all the super expensive gear that I cannot afford. Great good is nice, but good gear is all that is required.

That being said, scale mail in Kazham is a definite no-no. Any good player would realize that even if they can't have the best gear, they need reasonable gear to do their job. Do you need +1s of everything, of course not. But can you wear a set of level 10 gear in Yhoater Jungle? Again, of course not.

I will also agree that your play is the best way to earn a good reputation. Nobody will ever send you a tell saying "Hey, I remember you having some awesome gear, want to party?" While good gear will obviously help, it can't do it for you. Don't let your gear define who you are. Let your play do that.

[Slayerz]

never mind hate holders, or tanks, what about pullers? i have met countless pullers with a war main or subbed that think it is best to pull with provoke! thats just damn dumb, it is hella hard to gain hate as any kind of tank if the puller is using voke pull (at the lower lvl's anyways, and i mean 30 or lower). boomerangs dont cost alot, and they come back, so wtf is up with voke pulling?

[Valhallodin]

Provoke is much much faster than any boomerang or bow (with the exception of the Loxley Bow maybe). While I agree that using Provoke to pull may make life more difficult for the tank, sometimes it is needed simply so you can have something to fight. Spend some time in the Crawler's Nest pulling from the Beetle Room with 2 or 3 other parties down there and you will see why sometimes ranged attack simply does not get the job done.

[Striveldt]

pulling with poison works pretty well for me as a drk. pretty fast cast time (faster than the majority of ranged attacks) and puts very little hate on me...plus the mob is usually down a wopping 7-8 hp by the time it comes back!!! not to mention, that little bit of casting time gives me time to spin the camera around and be ready to run.

[Ikonic]

if the tank is worth anything he/she can take hate from the puller who has used voke. simplest way to start doing so is have the pld (tank) heal the puller and then voke the mob.

as for pulling, I've pulled as MNK in Garlaige Citadel. nothing like running up to the mob, hitting it, and then running back to camp having it hit me the whole way and trying to avoid falling down a hole.

[Striveldt]

if you were a smart monk, you have had pebbles...

[Ikonic]

As to my carrying pebbles.... ah, I'm a MNK I'm not supposed to pull. I pulled because the THF was new to Garlaige and uncomfortable pulling. and after lvl 41 if i really need to pull I can do so with chi blast, however as a MNK i should never be pulling. there should always be at least a DRK, WAR, THF, or RNG in the pt who can pull with ranged.


btw, your statement should have had "you'd" or "you would"

[Striveldt]

you were a theif, you weren't supposed to tank. I am a drk, I'm not supposed to tank. A blm/whm shouldn't ahve to heal...but sometimes those things are necessary. A good player should be ready for such situations. A stack of pebbles takes up one of your 55 slots, i'm sure you can handle it, you're a big mnk. ^^

[Ikonic]

ah. one slot is very valuable. even 'tho i have 55, i use 30 for gear and then food and other synthing materials. by the time i'm done with my gear and other various supplies i barely have 10-20 left for loot. and anyways... now that i'm lvl 42 i can pull with chi blast, but really i should never have to pull.

and as a blm i carry gear for healing as well as defensive.

i generally have 3 sets of partial/complete gear for any job i lvl. offensive, defensive, and evasive for melee. healing, nuking, and evasive for mages.